Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

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Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

YES
8
28%
NO
21
72%
 
Total votes: 29

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:15 am

regulator088 wrote:You were the one who was talking about Belicheck bubby. Once again your wrong 99.99% of the time.


I am saying he was part of my post but was not the general topic. Let's get off that overrated coach and stick to the subject. BRADY >>>>ALL in the NFL.


KILLING IT! 99.99% fact!

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby bruddog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:13 pm

No doubt TSBGOD will just let this fly over his head but here goes this is some info pulled from an article...

EPA= Expected Points Added
WPA= Win Probability Added

"Peyton has 129 EPA in 19 playoff games at 0.16 EPA/play. Brady has 114 EPA in 23 playoff games with 0.12 EPA/play. That's 33% more EPA per game and per play than Brady.

Want to measure clutch specifically? Peyton has 4.1 WPA in the playoffs at 0.22 WPA/game, while Brady has 4.23 at 0.19. That's 16% more WPA/game for Peyton than Brady. If Peyton is a playoff choker than Brady is even worse, and that's simply an absurd premise.

How to account for their different playoff records then? Just look at Peyton's teammates and their contributions. In the playoffs the non-passing aspects of Peyton's teams have added *negative* 6.1 EPA/game while Brady's team have added +0.2, according to Jason Lisk and PFR"


"While that was a horrible game by the pass defense, it is not that atypical for Manning’s playoff career. Let’s compare him to Tom Brady, and here is a breakdown of various aspects and points added/lost by each phase since 2000 in playoff games (sorry, the loss to Tennessee in his first playoff game not included).

Image
What does that show? Brady and the passing offense has been the primary driver of the Patriots’ playoff success, but the other phases have not hurt him in aggregate. Manning’s teams, on the other hand, have been worse in every phase, except for rushing defense, most notably in passing defense in the postseason. When both Manning and Brady are over 10.0 points added with passing offense, they are undefeated in the playoffs. (5-0 for Manning, 6-0 for Brady including yesterday). It’s what happens when they are not outstanding that has been the difference.

When the passing offense is merely above average (between 5 and 10 points), Manning is 1-5 in the postseason, with the one win coincidentally enough being the huge comeback against New England in the AFC Championship game that, temporarily, reversed the narratives. Brady is 3-1 when putting up similar performances, the one loss being last year’s Super Bowl.

Peyton Manning’s performance on Saturday, by this measure, was exactly in the middle of his past playoff performances–10th best in the postseason. Being exactly in the middle, thusly, means a loss. The special teams provided a boost, but it was more than offset by the defense. Manning should be judged for the specific plays he does and does not make, but when it comes to citing quarterback wins and losses in the postseason, realize that it is tied to many other things. Don’t let kicks, and misses, and shoe string tackles, and safeties blowing coverage define it"
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TDO » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:37 pm

:like: I found that very fascinating bruddog (i am not being sarcastic at all)
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:55 pm

You can try to spin it anyway you want Bruddog, but by any stretch of the imagination Manning has not been better than Brady in the playoffs. I am sure If you look hard enough you can find Brady better than him in much more ways. Interesting read but bottom line is wins . Sucks to say it but players are measured on wins and clutch performances. Doing the eye test we all have seen Manning fold and Brady step up a lot more times than Manning. I can agree with you on some points that Brady had the better team most of the time all around but the best team does not win all the time, hence the Broncos and some of Manning's Colts team. Look it up and see how many times his team was the favorite and he lost, plentiful. I completely understand your post and what you are saying but logically 99% of all sports fans, sport casters, and so called experts would agree Brady has been the best QB in his career over Manning..I.E. especially in the playoffs and clutch games. Obviously wins are a team thing but when you throw the ball away into the other teams arms more than a few times when the game is on the line it tells us all who has been the better QB. He does not pass the eye test compared to Brady. Brady has done it time after time. As I always said, I like Peyton more than Brady but I have witnessed too many fuck ups that has cost his team playoff wins regardless of the defense, special teams or lack of anything else he has had a chance to pull out a game or set his team up to win. He has failed a lot.

You could show this article to 100% of people that know football and this would not change their mind 1 iota about these two QB's. I am sure people can come up with stuff to say Lebron is better than MJ in some silly twist of ratings but we all know there is only one MJ and there is only one BRADY! Montana has the only case to be better than Brady and only Montana.

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby bruddog » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:09 am

No spin job. Just the facts. You're the one just talking in generalities. The bottom line isn't wins unless you are just a fool like half of the sports world. That totally discredits coaching and the rest of the team.

1. 2001 Tuck rule saves the game vs OAK- Special teams & defense wins game vs PIT. Special teams and defense win SB vs Rams.
2. 2003 Avg vs TEN and IND. Dominant against a decent CAR defense
3. 2004 His best playoff run. Dominant in all 3 games

*** Team defense begins up and down performance and eventual decline

4. 2005 he throws 2 picks vs Denver including horrid goaline pick- LOSS
5. 2006 throws 3 picks vs Chargers but escapes with win. "Blows" large lead vs Manning's Colts. LOSS
6. 2007 Again throws 3 picks vs Chargers but escapes with win again. Chokes vs Giants in Super bowl
7. 2009 "Chokes" at home vs Baltimore with 3 picks. Worst playoff performance yet
8. 2010 Pass offense does nothing till final few minutes of game and loses to underdog Jets
9. 2011 0TD Two picks vs Baltimore escapes again with win thanks to dropped TD and shanked FG. Loses again to Giants in superbowl despite being heavy favorites

The Two Chargers game and the Baltimore games are games by the "eye test" he definitely should have lost. I remember watching them and most of his playoff games except for one or two.

Brady great QB... Yes. >>>>> ALL. NO

Even his own peers had him in the top 20 most overrated. LOL
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby Tecmo Psycho » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:16 am

bruddog wrote:No doubt TSBGOD will just let this fly over his head but here goes this is some info pulled from an article...

EPA= Expected Points Added
WPA= Win Probability Added

"Peyton has 129 EPA in 19 playoff games at 0.16 EPA/play. Brady has 114 EPA in 23 playoff games with 0.12 EPA/play. That's 33% more EPA per game and per play than Brady.

Want to measure clutch specifically? Peyton has 4.1 WPA in the playoffs at 0.22 WPA/game, while Brady has 4.23 at 0.19. That's 16% more WPA/game for Peyton than Brady. If Peyton is a playoff choker than Brady is even worse, and that's simply an absurd premise.

How to account for their different playoff records then? Just look at Peyton's teammates and their contributions. In the playoffs the non-passing aspects of Peyton's teams have added *negative* 6.1 EPA/game while Brady's team have added +0.2, according to Jason Lisk and PFR"


"While that was a horrible game by the pass defense, it is not that atypical for Manning’s playoff career. Let’s compare him to Tom Brady, and here is a breakdown of various aspects and points added/lost by each phase since 2000 in playoff games (sorry, the loss to Tennessee in his first playoff game not included).

Image
What does that show? Brady and the passing offense has been the primary driver of the Patriots’ playoff success, but the other phases have not hurt him in aggregate. Manning’s teams, on the other hand, have been worse in every phase, except for rushing defense, most notably in passing defense in the postseason. When both Manning and Brady are over 10.0 points added with passing offense, they are undefeated in the playoffs. (5-0 for Manning, 6-0 for Brady including yesterday). It’s what happens when they are not outstanding that has been the difference.

When the passing offense is merely above average (between 5 and 10 points), Manning is 1-5 in the postseason, with the one win coincidentally enough being the huge comeback against New England in the AFC Championship game that, temporarily, reversed the narratives. Brady is 3-1 when putting up similar performances, the one loss being last year’s Super Bowl.

Peyton Manning’s performance on Saturday, by this measure, was exactly in the middle of his past playoff performances–10th best in the postseason. Being exactly in the middle, thusly, means a loss. The special teams provided a boost, but it was more than offset by the defense. Manning should be judged for the specific plays he does and does not make, but when it comes to citing quarterback wins and losses in the postseason, realize that it is tied to many other things. Don’t let kicks, and misses, and shoe string tackles, and safeties blowing coverage define it"



This was what I was asking for. Thanks.
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby regulator088 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:00 am

Citing facts to TSBGord is a lost cause. The only facts he knows are the one's he makes up in his head. He says do the eye test. The eye test cleary shows that Manning's teams were far worse than ANY of Brady's teams. But, you know the Gord, he lives in his own world with his own facts. Him and Skip Bayless should start a club. Did anyone happen to read that article Bayless put out saying RGIII > Luck? It was the most laughable and embarrassing article ESPN has ever published. RGIII won't even have a career in 3 years frm the style he plays. He will be injured 5-6 games a season if not more. Don't even start to compare stats either. Luck threw twice as many times and had the most attempts 20 yards+ in the NFL. Most of RGIII's passes were at or behind the LOS.
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:00 am

regulator088 wrote:Citing facts to TSBGord is a lost cause. The only facts he knows are the one's he makes up in his head. He says do the eye test. The eye test cleary shows that Manning's teams were far worse than ANY of Brady's teams. But, you know the Gord, he lives in his own world with his own facts. Him and Skip Bayless should start a club. Did anyone happen to read that article Bayless put out saying RGIII > Luck? It was the most laughable and embarrassing article ESPN has ever published. RGIII won't even have a career in 3 years frm the style he plays. He will be injured 5-6 games a season if not more. Don't even start to compare stats either. Luck threw twice as many times and had the most attempts 20 yards+ in the NFL. Most of RGIII's passes were at or behind the LOS.



Once again, you are spewing out nonsense, I never once said Manning had betters teams, only that Peyton has done worse in the post season and has made major mistakes unlike Brady. I do not think you ever read REG, you just crash a thread just to crash it. Please read before you talk your smack . Now RG3 will not have a career after 3 years..LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO Next thing you will tell us id that Kaepernick is better than RG3 LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO


I do not make up stats or facts, I think everyone knows the Brady and Manning stats and comparisons..It's really not a comparison any longer. Manning put that really to bed this season. Sorry REG, once again and as always, you are wrong and clueless.


I think the eye test is looking at the QB's, not the teams. Any non clueless person knows Brady has had the bette rall-around teams...HELLO! Tell em something that I do not know.


TSBGOD---> KILLING THIS THREAD AND TOPIC! :)


I actually wish this was an argument that could go either way, it would then be a lot harder for me to be killing this TOPIC!

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby bruddog » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:32 am

The only thing you've killed must be too many of your own brain cells. Please go join skip clueless as REG said.
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby regulator088 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:28 pm

My point proven about you making up your own facts. Bru just laid it out plain and simple where a trained monkey could understand the STATISTICS. I wonder what that makes you?
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:44 pm

bruddog wrote:The only thing you've killed must be too many of your own brain cells. Please go join skip clueless as REG said.




Don't hate because you guys are getting killed.Not like I am proud of it, this was way to easy of a debate. Not like many people would want the Peyton Manning side on this argument. It would be near impossible to win, as you witnessed in this thread :) BOOYAA!


I do see a very strong relationship brewing between REG and Brud. That is for another channel than ESPN though.

DID I SAY THAT!

Bottom line...If anyone of you two really think Peyton Manning has had a better career than Tom Brady, or is better than Tom Brady you are for sure not a true sports fan of the game and know nothing about football.


This is not Skip Bayless saying this...I am sure Esiason, Hoge, Kiper, Jaworski, Marino, Bradshaw, John Clayton, Craig Mortenson, the list can go on....I am sure 90% of these guys would take Tom Brady over Peyton Manning and these guys are experts unlike Tsbgod, Reg or Bruddog :). Oh but I get it, TSBGOD must be wrong thread! This is way, way, way, too easy! I actually lost some respect for you two in this thread due to your lame lack of knowledge and judgement. This is clearly a moot point after this playoff, Brady owns Peyton.

As I said 100 times in this thread...I wish this was a tougher argument to win, I actually am embarrassed to be given an easy topic.

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby regulator088 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:27 pm

You have managed to post the same thing paraphrasing yourself each time without actually providing statistics again like bruddog did. It gets more laughable each time.
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby regulator088 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:32 pm

In case you don't understand the statistics clearly ( which with the more you post I understand is a distinct possibility), it says the teams Peyton Manning had were not just not as good, but far worse than the teams Brady has been on which has a direct correlation to his W's and L's. It's not because Brady plays better. That stats show that given the team situations, Manning actually has better performances.

Now I know your head can't comprehend this cause all you see is W or L, but looking at it that way is as good as saying Trent Dilfer is as good as Manning because his playoff record is better. Look outside the box for once. Your missing a world of information. The performance of your team directly affects your performance no matter what sport. Sheesh it's not hard to understand!
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:17 pm

regulator088 wrote:You have managed to post the same thing paraphrasing yourself each time without actually providing statistics again like bruddog did. It gets more laughable each time.


I posted my stats...


Everyone favors Brady...

17-6 in postseason Manning 9-11 with Manning 8 games one and out of playoffs. If I posted more stats it would look even worse. I hate wasting time on a not even close argument. Take my word and all the 95% of all the other experts..You are wrong and it's ok if you are in the vast minority, people are blind sometimes.


You have managed all false statements..you are the one that is getting laughable. All you are doing is as always , disagreeing with whatever I say. Just your nature I guess. I could see If I was among the minority who thinks Brady is better but that is not the case. Do you think all the experts are wrong also? Is there anyone left on the planet that is an expert that thinks Peyton Manning had a better career than Tom Brady or is better QB in general? I think it would be hard to find more than a few in the whole country. I just do not understand the point you are trying to make. I think it's the I want to just be opposite of TSBGOD :) I guess that will never change...You love me you big STUD!

You always say things that are false REG, I do not only go by wins, Super Bowls and etc.... In my all time ranking It's Montana, Marino and then Brady and Marino has never won a Super Bowl in case you did not know that since you have not been around that long my young whipping stool. In some cases wins and losses do matter to me and in others they do not. I go by what I see and what they have done. I do not want the excuse Manning team's were totally worse than Brady's...He did fine regular season and then got to the playoffs and tanked it! Manning is probably the greatest regular season QB hands down of all-time( Brady included. But..when it comes to post season he is not the same QB he was in the regular season for whatever reason. That is why If I take the regular season and playoffs combined, Brady wins this argument every time whoever you talk to. You can use in the post season you play harder teams, that's fine but Brady stays pretty consistent and most of the time does not cost his team a playoff win in the final minutes of the game like Peyton. Yes, it helps when you have a better defense but you still cant throw the game away like Peyton ALA FAvre always did. I am not trying to prove Brady is better, it's something that is already known and etched in stone. Not like I made this up...HOLLA!

For some reason you keep bringing up Peyton had worse teams, I think I already said 100 times, everyone knows this and still thinks Brady is the better QB overall regular season and postseason combined. Brady will go down in history when it's all said and done , either #1, #2 or #3 and that's the reality of it. Like it or not.

If Peyton and the Colts won the Super Bowl against the Saints and maybe beat the ravens this year , we might be having a different convo....that did not happen though :)


Ok, I am done posting here....it's getting old..making the same winning argument. :) Have fun!

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TDO » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:50 pm

watching this pregame stuff and thought about this topic and realized. Brady, Manning is like Montana, Marino. Same debate really.
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby daboy8821 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:37 am

was the "greatest QB of all time" throwing to his receivers or the worms?

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby bruddog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:47 am

Brady "chokes" again. Brady blows 4th down. Then throws 2 picks trying to come back. Manning did better. Lol
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby kamphuna8 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:48 am

I don't know. Romo without a lot of time to throw > Brady without a lot of time to throw. Tee hee
cool as high water

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why be malicious
make sno sense on a tecmo board

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well to some it obviously does
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:56 am

bruddog wrote:Brady "chokes" again. Brady blows 4th down. Then throws 2 picks trying to come back. Manning did better. Lol


I am loving it... With friends all Patriots fans, I am soaking this up so much. Won 1k on the Falcons and won 2 K on the Ravens. Pretty good day!!!!



I love it when the Patriots lose, makes it so much better in this place! haha

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby regulator088 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:01 am

BRADY GREATEST OF ALL TIME. So shall it be written, so shall it be done.

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby Matlisab » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:11 am

TSBGOD wrote:
bruddog wrote:Brady "chokes" again. Brady blows 4th down. Then throws 2 picks trying to come back. Manning did better. Lol


I am loving it... With friends all Patriots fans, I am soaking this up so much. Won 1k on the Falcons and won 2 K on the Ravens. Pretty good day!!!!



I love it when the Patriots lose, makes it so much better in this place! haha



I love it how you avoid the fact that Brud's stats (and today's performance) gives him an advantage in the Brady argument but you refuse to enter into the conversation again or refute statistics. Instead throwing out some random (possibly fake) bets and shallow excitement for the Patriots losing to inflate your ego even more. Remember there are a few of us who've been around since before you were and haven't been duped into your online persona like some of the more recent guys have.

But hey, stay classy you
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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:20 am

Matlisab wrote:
TSBGOD wrote:
bruddog wrote:Brady "chokes" again. Brady blows 4th down. Then throws 2 picks trying to come back. Manning did better. Lol


I am loving it... With friends all Patriots fans, I am soaking this up so much. Won 1k on the Falcons and won 2 K on the Ravens. Pretty good day!!!!



I love it when the Patriots lose, makes it so much better in this place! haha



I love it how you avoid the fact that Brud's stats (and today's performance) gives him an advantage in the Brady argument but you refuse to enter into the conversation again or refute statistics. Instead throwing out some random (possibly fake) bets and shallow excitement for the Patriots losing to inflate your ego even more. Remember there are a few of us who've been around since before you were and haven't been duped into your online persona like some of the more recent guys have.



But hey, stay classy you



HUH? I am only telling the truth, it has been a great day, I have always hated the Patriots and will always love when they lose. Not sure what persona you are talking about? Please do not hate on me Reverend for who I am and what I have. Brud stats? Brady was average today, that does not take anything away from Brady and Manning argument. It is a foregone conclusion where those two go down in history. It has already been cemented.


Possibly fake bets? Just because you are not secure in life reverend, please do not try to belittle or try to figure out someone else's life. I sometime wonder how you are a man of god( POSSIBLY a fake GOD follower) with the stuff you say sometimes. You try to be part of every part of my topics like I owe you something. You should learn a little before you open JESUS's mouth. Stay classy man, GOD will try to forgive you for your sin. You have no clue what you are talknig about reverend so do not try to pretend you do. Obviously you have not been paying attention or just want to be a part of something instead of being a church going nerd who has little to be proud of other than your hairline. LOL

To answer Brud's statement...Brady did better, he was in championship game and did not throw an INT to cost his team the game. Better Reverend or Satan lover?


regulator088 wrote:BRADY GREATEST OF ALL TIME. So shall it be written, so shall it be done.

Only TSBdorks world


Once again nothing correct about your statement as always. Do you ever follow the subject matter? Are you taking your patients meds again? Get a real job and then come see me. LOL


Reverend, you can come meet me anytime so I can show you my real persona, you would then get a clue that I am a man of my word and a man of truth. Please do not hate, you are a man of god.

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby Matlisab » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:35 am

Challenging your ever constant growing online ego doesn't equate to me not being 'secure' in life. Not sure what your angle on that is. I'm pretty secure. If anyone isn't, it may be you. You seem to spend the most time on these boards trying to prop up your intelligence/money/ability/etc...

Attacking the 'religious card' is a weak attempt. No reason to try to bash my character or beliefs because I bring to light your constant ego concern. Bringing up the name of Jesus or God isn't a slight to me, so you'll have to figure out something else to attack my character instead ranting on something off topic to again reflect attention off your terrible sports takes.

As for the hairline remark, thanks. I was getting a little nervous about it's receding, but glad to know you think it looks good.
League Regular Season Record: 193-81
League Playoff Record: 15-12
TPC Recored: 163-55

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:41 am

Matlisab wrote:Challenging your ever constant growing online ego doesn't equate to me not being 'secure' in life. Not sure what your angle on that is. I'm pretty secure. If anyone isn't, it may be you. You seem to spend the most time on these boards trying to prop up your intelligence/money/ability/etc...

Attacking the 'religious card' is a weak attempt. No reason to try to bash my character or beliefs because I bring to light your constant ego concern. Bringing up the name of Jesus or God isn't a slight to me, so you'll have to figure out something else to attack my character instead ranting on something off topic to again reflect attention off your terrible sports takes.

As for the hairline remark, thanks. I was getting a little nervous about it's receding, but glad to know you think it looks good.




Well seems like you are not secure in life, that is just my take. You try to pretend like you know me or me personal life. I am not attacking your character just saying it seems like it could be a false character. I am not trying to slight you at all, just telling you how you are coming off to me in your last post. Like you know me. Terrible sports take? Brady is better than Manning and has had a better career, not sure how that is a bad sports take. Once again just trying to say something to make yourself feel wanted on board. I never once tried to prop up my intelligence nor ability in anything, that is just you being a total douche. It's like you think you know me. You don't and please do try and say you do. You are hating me for me being me, that is really sad. Like I said in my PM, please get a blowjob to release some tension, if that is not against your faith. It really helps, trust me --->


For your information, I have no online EGO at all, sorry if you take fun as an ego. Loosen up and release some sperm kid. Please


I know, you will go on aim and tell..I gotcha! I am messing around with you why you taking it serious. You tend to do that a lot. It's not a joke , only when you are losing reverend.

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Re: Is Brady best QB in the NFL?

Postby Matlisab » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:55 am

TSBGOD wrote: Well seems like you are not secure in life, that is just my take.


Fair enough. I'd challenge that notion, but you're free to think what you want.

You try to pretend like you know me or me personal life.


Not sure how you got that from the first post. Nope, I don't know your personal life. Just know what I've read for 10 years and engaged in over AIM.

I am not attacking your character just saying it seems like it could be a false character.


I get what you're saying. I just think it's an easy position for you to take because I'm 'religious'.


Terrible sports take?


Yes, you have a the TW boards and PT boards full of them over the years.

Once again just trying to say something to make yourself feel wanted on board.


Not sure where you get this. I don't post much on the boards.

You are hating me for me being me, that is really sad.


I don't hate the playa, just the game.
Seriously though, I don't hate you for being you. Be you, but just know that I'll be me to challenge you being you.

**The preceding 2 lines were sarcasm and a joke, please be aware potential readers**

Like I said in my PM, please get a blowjob to release some tension, if that is not against your faith. It really helps, trust me --->


I don't talk about my sex life, especially with strangers. But I assure you I'm fine in this area. Also as a public announcement, my wife is due with our 4th baby girl in 6 weeks or so. Please keep her and the baby in your thoughts and prayers.


For your information, I have no online EGO at all, sorry if you take fun as an ego.


I'll have to agree to disagree here. Maybe we should make a poll to see what the masses think?
League Regular Season Record: 193-81
League Playoff Record: 15-12
TPC Recored: 163-55


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