Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby SOWA1291 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:16 pm

Matlab said
Water baptism had nothing to do with their salvation.


Actually the bible explicitly disagrees with you.

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Instead of taking these verses literally your are allowing your theology to dictate your interpretation. Each time a verse disagrees with your reformation theology you say the translation is wrong or use verbal tomfoolery to say you are the only one who know how to interpret the bible. The church for 1600 years disagreed with your interpretations. People who were taught directly by the apostles disagree with your interpretations. Yet you know more then Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, ect...
I think I will go with what the early Christians believed and not how you interpret the bible. You claim you need the bible to be explicit yet you believe that faith alone saves you. Yet the bible never says faith alone saves you it actually says the opposite in James 2-24. Their is no where else in the bible where faith alone appears. Even though their is no explicit verse for it you believe because it agrees with your theology. In this case where your reformation theology says baptism does not save you because we said its faith alone you dance around the issue. You can't have it both ways claiming you need the bible to be explicit yet you adhere to doctrines that are when you want to. Have you ever read the early Christians? Some of them were taught by the apostles directly. Maybe you should read their writings on how they interpreted the bible. Lets just say they would totally disagree with your reformation theology.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Matlisab » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:54 am

SOWA1291 wrote:Actually the bible explicitly disagrees with you.


... Actually the Bible explicitly disagrees with you and the Catholic Church. :shock:

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).


See exegesis of 1 Peter 3:21. It was posted. Wrestle with the text and get back to me. It's your strongest verse to hang your hat on... unless you take the Greek literally. Same with Acts 2:38, read my first post where this passage is mentioned. Romans 6?? You think that is talking about water baptism? Where is water mentioned? It's spirit baptism, so is Galatians 3, those are good cross references.

Instead of taking these verses literally your are allowing your theology to dictate your interpretation.


Other way around. I'm not loyal to a church or denomination like you are. I'm loyal to the text, I don't care what popes have taught in the past, I'm more concerned with a literal hermenutic of the Bible. A literal interpretation that says that Salvation is by grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone. These verses I take literally. Salvation is explained by faith and baptism is not mentioned. I wrestled 1 Peter 3, John 3 and the account of Acts, how do you explain these verses?

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Each time a verse disagrees with your reformation theology you say the translation is wrong or use verbal tomfoolery to say you are the only one who know how to interpret the bible.


I've never gotten into the translation debate on this topic. Because I use the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) to study the Scriptures doesn't mean I use verbal tomfoolery. It means I've done the research, I've parsed the verbs and taken the time to formulate my own opinions. I have no problem calling out some of the reformers who were out in left field in their theology. I'm not loyal to them. And I've never said I'm the only one who knows how to interpret the Bible. I've merely given my conviction on what the truth of Scripture is based upon my own personal study and training. Not a copy and paste from a church website or article.


The church for 1600 years disagreed with your interpretations. People who were taught directly by the apostles disagree with your interpretations. Yet you know more then Hermas, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, ect...I think I will go with what the early Christians believed and not how you interpret the bible.

Again, I have no loyalty to early church fathers from the Catholic Church. They were just as depraved and imperfect as the rest of humanity. I'll stick to what the Bible says over quotes from guys you like to hang your hat on. I'm not completely discrediting church history, it's important, but I rest upon the revelation of Scripture, not the reason of men.


You claim you need the bible to be explicit yet you believe that faith alone saves you. Yet the bible never says faith alone saves you it actually says the opposite

The Bible never says faith alone saves?
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

in James 2-24.


If you take the time to read this and the CONTEXT (yes context is important to understand flow of thought, you can't just pick a verse and make it say whatever you want)

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith; that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.


Their is no where else in the bible where faith alone appears. Even though their is no explicit verse for it you believe because it agrees with your theology.


See above

In this case where your reformation theology says baptism does not save you because we said its faith alone you dance around the issue.

Actually I think I've done anything but dance. I've refused to exegete and tackle verses that support faith alone and have went head on with you and Zuir regarding all the accounts in Acts, John 3 and 1 Peter 3. I've taken the time to try to explain myself thoroughly. I'm not saying you disagree, but I am saying you cannot accuse of me dancing around the topic. I've tried to have a very healthy conversation and engage people and their convictions

You can't have it both ways claiming you need the bible to be explicit yet you adhere to doctrines that are when you want to. Have you ever read the early Christians? Some of them were taught by the apostles directly.


Again your authority is the Catholic Church. Yes I've had an extensive amount of education and recreational study in the early church fathers. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I'm not saying they weren't saved, I'm not saying they weren't godly men. There was a reason for the reformation, it was that the Catholic Church became more about popish tradition than following the manual (Scripture) literally. None of the apostles in the NT taught water baptism equates to salvation, they were inspired, I hang my hat on the authority of Scripture, not the church.

Maybe you should read their writings on how they interpreted the bible. Lets just say they would totally disagree with your reformation theology.


I've read them and studied them. I'm thankful for the reformation. I'm thankful that salvation is available to anyone who puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I'm thankful salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Yeah buddy, understatement of the year. I would be willing to die for salvation by faith alone. It's what Christ died for. Now looking back, I hope you don't think I took your comments personally. I didn't and if you knew me, you'd know that I've enjoyed this thread thoroughly. I'm passionate (just as you are) because I have a deep, deep conviction of what the Bible teaches. I've spend years giving myself over to the study of this one book, the Bible. I have nothing against you (I say this only because it may be difficult for you to sense my tone over a message board), but my convictions hold that you and the Catholic Church are unbiblical in your understanding of Soteriology. I think the Catholic church does a number of things well thought, so it's not as if I don't like Catholics. I have friends from my younger days who are currently in Catholic seminary. We have these same discussions and they are just as heated.

I'm just thankful we have the opportunity to freely expose our convictions and share with others. There is a good chance many people will read this dialogue and consider the person of Jesus Christ in their life. Sowa, you always have good input and strong convictions. Thanks! And I look forward to your reply.
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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby ziurziur » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:00 pm

In Acts 19:1-5 we see that the disciples were baptized in water again in Jesus name and then AFTER they received the holy spirit when the apostles laid their hands on them. Just pointing out that a person does not receive the holy spirit when they are water baptized. Being born of the water is water baptism, being born of the spirit is separate, they dont happen at the same time. It didnt happen with these disciples and it didnt happen with Cornelius and his household.

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby SOWA1291 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:36 pm

Matslab said
The Bible never says faith alone saves?
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."


Where does it say faith alone in the versus above? I see that faith is very important but it does not say its the only thing necessary. I can list a bunch of verses that imply that its more than faith that is necessary.

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby SOWA1291 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:49 pm

II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Matlisab » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:41 pm

Matlisab wrote: From the time of John the Baptist to the Day of Pentecost
• John the Baptist (or John the Baptizer) came to Israel baptizing in water
It was a baptism of repentance in order to prepare themselves for the coming of the Lord Jesus, whose way John was sent by God to prepare
The religious Jews questioned John’s right to baptize others in water, since up to that time, people who considered themselves to be defiled baptized themselves in water for outward purification in order to enter the Temple area to worship God
John answered their objections by pointing out the significance of his role in preparing the nation for the coming of the Lord, but then pointed out that the Lord who would come after him would have a greater baptism than he could perform; that being Christ’s authority as the Son of God to give the Holy Spirit to those who would believe on Him as God’s promised Lamb to die for the sins of the world
All of this is recorded in John 1:19-34. So right from the start, John the Baptist makes a great distinction between the significance of his baptism of converts in water and Christ’s greater baptism with the Holy Spirit
• The twelve apostles (including Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot) were baptized by John the Baptist in water and were never re-baptized. Acts 1:5

On the Day of Pentecost
• Jesus told His twelve apostles to tarry in Jerusalem after His ascension in order to receive His promised Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which then occurred in the Upper Room ten days later.
The evidence that this special giving of the Holy Spirit from Christ in heaven took place was that each disciple of the 120 who were gathered together in the Upper Room, whether they be male or female, was then able to speak to the people in the streets of Jerusalem in languages foreign to their upraising
When Peter preached his famous sermon to explain the miracle that had taken place which unbelievers in Jerusalem could not deny, he then gave an invitation for those who had not yet believed in Jesus to repent of having rejected Him when He was on the earth in their midst, and then be publicly baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins. He promised that they too would then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, identifying them with Christ in heaven and His greater baptism mentioned by John the Baptist. Acts 2:37-41.
Peter’s invitation was in perfect harmony with Christ’s instructions to His apostles as to what they were to demand by way of response to the message they preached of Christ’s death for sins, resurrection the third day apart from corruption, and ascension into heaven. Mark 16:15-20.
o Unfortunately, many of those who do not believe that water baptism has anything to do with salvation discount these verses, saying they really are not part of God’s Word. They say this because two complete Greek translations dated from the fourth century omit these verses. But trying to deny what these verses say does not solve the problem of other New Testament passages that indicate that being baptized in water was to precede one’s salvation and receiving the Holy Spirit as evidence of that salvation.
There are some who try to say that the Greek preposition eis, translated “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38, KJV translation), should really be translated as “because of the remission of sins.” This is again an effort on the part of Baptists to deny that water baptism was at first required to receive the Holy Spirit. But the overwhelming use of the Greek preposition eis means “for” just as is translated in the King James Bible. Furthermore, would Peter resort to a rare usage of a Greek preposition to answer the question as to what those listening to him must do in order to receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The Conversion of the Samaritans
• The believers gathered in Jerusalem were forced to flee due to the persecution of the church led by Saul of Tarsus who later become known as the apostle Paul
• One of the original seven deacons by the name of Philip, went preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the city of Samaria.
• Many of the Samaritans believed and were baptized in water, yet they had not received the Holy Spirit from Christ in heaven.
• So Philip, not being an apostle, sent for Peter and John from Jerusalem who, after praying for them, laid hands on them. They at that time received the Holy Spirit. This is recorded in Acts 8:12-24.

The Conversion of the first Gentiles
• A centurion by the name of Cornelius had a healthy fear of the only true God of both Jews and Gentiles, and attended the synagogue for worship. But as yet he does not know about Jesus Christ, and has therefore not received the Holy Spirit from Christ.
• Through the providence of God, Peter preaches the Gospel of Christ to Cornelius and his household (family and servants).
• For about five years or so, Peter has been used to preaching the Gospel, and then commanding the responders to repent, be baptized in water, and then they will receive the Holy Spirit from Christ in heaven.
• But on this occasion, the Lord Jesus completely surprises the apostle Peter. The Bible clearly says that the Holy Spirit simply fell upon Cornelius and his household while Peter was yet speaking. In other words, the Lord didn’t even give Peter time to tell them what to do.
• Peter then commands them to be baptized in water, as Jesus had commanded for all of His disciples. But he so commands them, not for the purpose of then receiving the Holy Spirit, but because it had become evident that they had already received the Holy Spirit.
• All of this is recorded in Acts 10.
• Peter later defends his having baptized these Gentiles before the Jews in Jerusalem, indicating that God had the perfect right to purify their hearts by simple faith, Acts 11:15-18; 15:8-9.
Paul and the Philippian Jailor
• When God caused an earthquake to break the shackles that bound Paul and Silas in prison, the jailor drew his sword to kill himself, thinking that they had escaped.
• When Paul assured him they had not tried to escape, the jailor asked him what he must do to be saved. Paul’s answer was quite different that that which Peter had given the Jews on the day of Pentecost. He simply tells them to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” and he would be saved. Paul then goes to his house and after further instruction, then baptizes them in water.
• This is recorded in Acts 16.
Paul and the Jewish Disciples of John living in Ephesus
• When the apostle Paul encounters twelve Jewish men in the city of Ephesus on his third missionary journey, he asks them whether or not they have received the Holy Spirit.
• When they indicate to him that they had not, he reminded them what John the Baptist had required of those he baptized in water. It was not enough to repent. They would then have to believe on Jesus Christ who would follow Him in order to receive the Holy Spirit.
• Since these men had been baptized with the water indicating their willingness to repent of the sins, but had not followed through in their need to then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, they therefore had not received the Holy Spirit from Christ.
• Consequently, these twelve men were re-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and upon Paul’s laying on of hands, they received the Holy Spirit.
What do these events in the book of Acts indicate about the relationship between John’s baptism in water and Christ’s baptism with the Holy Spirit?
• That while there were believers who were baptized by Christ from heaven with the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water, and there were believers who were baptized with the Holy Spirit after they were baptized in water, no Jew or Gentile ever received the Holy Spirit in the waters of baptism.
• That John, the first one God authorized to baptize in water, made it very clear that Christ’s baptism was much greater than that performed with human hands.
• That the only ones in the book of Acts that were required to first be baptized in water and receive the laying on of the apostle’s hands before receiving the Holy Spirit, were those who had seen Christ’s ministry on earth and yet rejected Him. Having rejected Him publicly before the Gentiles in delivering Him over to be crucified, they were required by Christ from heaven to repent and publicly confess their faith in Him before giving them the Holy Spirit.
• But it is very clear from the Scriptural account that justification is by faith in the Lord Jesus
Christ.
How does Paul’s selection by Christ to be an apostle clear up any potential confusion?
• Because Jewish unbelievers were required to first be publicly baptized in water after Christ’s death and resurrection before they were given the Holy Spirit, it is easy to see how some believers might associate water baptism with salvation. Even the apostle Peter was surprised when God gave the Holy Spirit to Gentiles without first requiring water baptism.
• So to clear up any misunderstanding, while Jesus had commanded His twelve apostles to baptize every disciple in water, He purposely did not command Paul to do so, but to simply require faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in response to the Gospel.
• For this reason Paul did not keep good records as to whom he personally baptized or not (as indicated in his first epistle to the Corinthians, 1:12-16). He then informed the Corinthian church that the reason he did not emphasize his own role in baptizing them when they responded to his preaching, is lest “the cross of Christ should be made of none effect,” 1 Corinthans 1:17).
• In other words, there are even believers today, as there were in the church back then, who allow water to interfere with what should be the proper focus of the unbeliever, and that is the cross of Jesus Christ.

How does Peter’s later writing on this topic confirm that water baptism is only symbolic of salvation?
• Because Peter says baptizing in water is symbolic of God’s deliverance of Noah and his family through the waters of the flood, even as the person being baptized is believing in Christ to deliver him from the wrath to come. (The KJV translation “the like figure” is one word in the Greek for the English word “antitype”).
• Because Peter makes it very clear that the water in which a disciple is being baptized in no way removes the “filth” of the flesh. That is, it is not holy at all in the sense of removing one’s sins.
• In other words, Peter himself finally got it straight when it comes to the subject of water baptism.
• Water baptism is very important as one’s testimony of a good conscience towards God because of his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21), and is commanded by Christ for every disciple to publicly declare his or her faith in Christ, but in no way is to be construed as being necessary for salvation in receiving the Holy Spirit from Christ.

20- ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε ὅτε ἅπαξ ἐξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τουτέστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί διεσώθησαν δι᾽ ὕδατος
21- ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

I'm not familiar who well you know Greek yet, but 1 Peter 3:20,21 has major holes if you believe it to state baptism means salvation. In verse 20 Peter lays the vivid example of Noah being saved through the waters, the word δι᾽in the Greek means through, not by. So Noah and his family were saved through the flood because they were on the ark. In verse 21, Peter uses the neuter article ὃ which points back to the neuter form of δι᾽. Then Peter uses the word ἀντίτυπον which means "like figure" or antitype of the example of Noah. Saying that the like figure or the example of Noah is a symbolic one that verse 21 ends with, is an appeal of a good conscience to God because of their faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism in verse 21 doesn't remove dirt/evil/depravity from the flesh, as the text says, but it is an indication of a clear conscience that one has because of their faith in Christ.

This is getting long, but I want to address John 3:5 as well. Born of water is not water baptism. Read John 4:13-14 and John 7:37. John defines water not as water baptism, but water as the new life that is given through Christ.

Also the conversion of Saul (Paul) in Acts. Read Acts 9:17-19, Paul was never commanded to be baptized for salvation.



Scriptures that clearly support regeneration/salvation by faith and faith alone: (You'll have to grapple with these, as I've grappled with the passages you use to support water baptism) If you want to have integrity to what the Bible says and not what you've been taught.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Matlisab » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:45 pm

Matlisab wrote:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Yeah buddy, understatement of the year. I would be willing to die for salvation by faith alone. It's what Christ died for. Now looking back, I hope you don't think I took your comments personally. I didn't and if you knew me, you'd know that I've enjoyed this thread thoroughly. I'm passionate (just as you are) because I have a deep, deep conviction of what the Bible teaches. I've spend years giving myself over to the study of this one book, the Bible. I have nothing against you (I say this only because it may be difficult for you to sense my tone over a message board), but my convictions hold that you and the Catholic Church are unbiblical in your understanding of Soteriology. I think the Catholic church does a number of things well thought, so it's not as if I don't like Catholics. I have friends from my younger days who are currently in Catholic seminary. We have these same discussions and they are just as heated.

I'm just thankful we have the opportunity to freely expose our convictions and share with others. There is a good chance many people will read this dialogue and consider the person of Jesus Christ in their life.
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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Matlisab » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:01 am

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

Good to see where all your information is coming. Have you studied any of this yourself or is it all merely a simply copy and paste?
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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby SOWA1291 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:26 pm

Copy and paste. Though I do read through it to see what it says about a particular issue to see if what they say makes sense. I have arguements with my protestant friends about many topics and normally go to the web to get the answer and read what they have to say. I am an accountant by trade and have no training in philosophy, theology, biblical heurmenutics and exegesis.

I listen to alot of podcasts. Used to listen to the bible answer man Hank Hannagraph and some other protestant shows. Most protestant shows are very anti Catholic. Now its mainly catholic radio. Listen to alot of Catholic Answers @ catholic.com . Would be cool if you (Matslab) called in to hear you argue with a profession rather than some scrub like myself. Most of the guys on there are former protestants such as Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples. Jimmy actually knows new testament greek, aramaic and Hebrew so if you want to get technical I would call when he is the guest. I actually got Jimmy's book the Salvation controversy and read that. I have read Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict the 16. Your liabrary would have that and he does a lot of exegesis and heurmenutics that you may enjoy. What shows do you listen to if any and what books have you read that you think I may be interested.

Most people get thier theology from the work of those that went before us. They study the bible and then how other people interpreted it and then pick what they think is right. I am sure that you being a pastor have spent much more time studying than I have. But even you have to admit you are influenced by those that have come before us in your biblical world view. Most Christians rely on thier pastor to interpret the bible for them.

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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Leonard Fournette » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:43 pm

You guys are in full debate mode, LOVE IT!
Praise be to The Lord.
GEAUX TIGERS!
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Re: Water baptism doesn't bring about salvation

Postby Matlisab » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:13 pm

SOWA1291 wrote:Copy and paste. Though I do read through it to see what it says about a particular issue to see if what they say makes sense. I have arguements with my protestant friends about many topics and normally go to the web to get the answer and read what they have to say. I am an accountant by trade and have no training in philosophy, theology, biblical heurmenutics and exegesis.

That's cool to hear that you like to go back and forth with friends. I assume you agree with me in that discussion and reading is incredibly valuable to learning. I think we should all be learners for the rest of our life, regardless of job profession. It's encouraging to see you be passionate about it.

I listen to alot of podcasts. Used to listen to the bible answer man Hank Hannagraph and some other protestant shows. Most protestant shows are very anti Catholic. Now its mainly catholic radio. Listen to alot of Catholic Answers @ catholic.com .

I don't listen to the radio or any shows, but it's sad to hear that protestants are anti Catholic. I disagree with certain points of their doctrine (key doctrine in some places). But I genuinely love them as well as anyone else. It's unfortunate that people have to be negative toward one another.


Would be cool if you (Matslab) called in to hear you argue with a profession rather than some scrub like myself. Most of the guys on there are former protestants such as Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples. Jimmy actually knows new testament greek, aramaic and Hebrew so if you want to get technical I would call when he is the guest.

Ha, well I'm sure it would be fun. Being a younger guy I'm sure their language skills are better than mine. I hope to grow significantly in that area. I always enjoy a hearty conversation. Maybe one of these days I'll give it a go. I have to admit I don't spend much time online the radio though. But if I happen to stumble across it, I wouldn't mind throwing my two cents in.


I actually got Jimmy's book the Salvation controversy and read that. I have read Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict the 16. Your liabrary would have that and he does a lot of exegesis and heurmenutics that you may enjoy. What shows do you listen to if any and what books have you read that you think I may be interested.

I don't listen to any shows. I have listened to many sermons on SermonAudio.com. They are free to download and listen to, you can stream them as well. I download them and put them on my computer sometimes. I'd recommend any sermon by Paul Washer, he's not a fantastic exegete, but he loves God. As far as books, that's a tough one. Anything by Martyn Lloyd Jones is solid. Most of the puritans are good (but long winded and sometimes difficult to read). Jerry Bridges tends to have very practical books that I enjoy about the Christian life. A.W. Tozer and A.W. Pink do an excellent job in writing books about who God is. (Pink tends to be more hardline calvinistic, but I still like him). Theology books I like Grudem, Ryrie, Erickson. Commentaries I enjoy, Martyn Lloyd Jones (especially on Romans, Ephesians and Acts), Barnes, Douglass Moo, and Peter Obrien.


Most people get thier theology from the work of those that went before us. They study the bible and then how other people interpreted it and then pick what they think is right.

This is very true, although I wish it were less true. Don't get me wrong, I think it is very, very important to read church history and see how the leaders of Christianity before us interpreted Scripture, but I find so often that many people don't actually read the Bible themselves. I know pastors who've never read through the Bible and that just floors me. If the Bible truly is the Word of God, we should read it and study it to make sure our leaders are teaching what it truly says.


I am sure that you being a pastor have spent much more time studying than I have.

This doesn't automatically make me more knowledgable or more spiritual. Just means that I've put in the time over the years over and over again. I'm not better than you. (I don't think you were implying this, just wanted to say it anyway)

But even you have to admit you are influenced by those that have come before us in your biblical world view. Most Christians rely on thier pastor to interpret the bible for them.

Yes I've been influenced heavily by scholars or pastors or missionaries that are before my time. All their influence is checked by the Word of God though. I take what they say and if it lines up with what the Bible says,I'm all for it. This is why there are people I've been influenced by that I cannot agree with everything they've ever said or taught. I never completely disregard anyone, I chew it up and spit out the bones. I have no loyalty to any person or denomination.
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