Jesus is the Father

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Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:52 pm

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point.

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.

4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.

Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).

We can easily understand all of this if we realize that Jesus has a dual nature. He is both Spirit and flesh, God and man, Father and Son. On His human side He is the Son of man; on His divine side He is the Son of God and is the Father dwelling in flesh.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby TSBGOD » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:14 pm

Why are you posting this?

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby Matlisab » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:14 pm

Zuir, I'll post maybe later today or tomorrow. This is a good conversation. You obviously know I believe in the Trinity God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I'll discourse back and forth some later.

Do you have any of your own thoughts though? Or are you just going to copy and paste your whole argument from other sources? I'd like to know in advance, thanks.

http://www.newlifeupc.org/wp-content/up ... e-Ch4.html

ziurziur wrote:If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point.

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.

4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.

Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).

We can easily understand all of this if we realize that Jesus has a dual nature. He is both Spirit and flesh, God and man, Father and Son. On His human side He is the Son of man; on His divine side He is the Son of God and is the Father dwelling in flesh.
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:33 pm

I copied and paste cause it was faster than typing up verses. I had already sent some of these verses via aim.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby Matlisab » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:11 pm

Well I'll start simple and we can go deeper from there.

I believe the Bible teaches there is 1 God. I also believe the Bible to teach that God is made up of a Triune Godhead in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All are God and God is one. Jesus in fact does say that He and the Father are One. They are one because they are part of the 1 God that is the Triune Godhead of the Scriptures. This is classic, historical protestant teaching.

A clear example would be the baptism of Jesus in Mark 1.

Jesus Christ who is God is baptized in the waters

The Holy Spirit who is God descends from the heavens.

The Father who is God speaks from heaven.

Now Zuir, what you are proposing is that God is indeed One, but Jesus Christ, Himself is both the Father and Holy Spirit. One person wearing 3 different masks if you will.

If Jesus is the Father, who is speaking from Heaven? And if Jesus is the Holy Spirit (which you also believe), how is Jesus in the water, descending from Heaven and speaking from Heaven all at the same time?

There are many passages that teach no one has ever seen God (the Father). If Jesus Christ is the Father, how can the Scriptures say no one has seen the Father? Many people saw Jesus Christ.

As far as the pre incarnate Jesus in the OT, I won't go there right now... we'll get to it though. An explanation of Mark 1 and an explanation how no one has ever seen the Father according to Scripture but many have seen Jesus the Son. This would alone indicate Jesus is the Son of God, not the Father.


If you copy and paste again, please cite any sources you copy instead of trying to pass it on as your own words.
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby SOWA1291 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:45 pm

Matlisab said

I believe the Bible teaches there is 1 God. I also believe the Bible to teach that God is made up of a Triune Godhead in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All are God and God is one. Jesus in fact does say that He and the Father are One. They are one because they are part of the 1 God that is the Triune Godhead of the Scriptures. This is classic, historical protestant teaching.


Actually the Catholic Church has been teaching this for 2000 years.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby Matlisab » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:44 pm

SOWA1291 wrote:Matlisab said

I believe the Bible teaches there is 1 God. I also believe the Bible to teach that God is made up of a Triune Godhead in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All are God and God is one. Jesus in fact does say that He and the Father are One. They are one because they are part of the 1 God that is the Triune Godhead of the Scriptures. This is classic, historical protestant teaching.


Actually the Catholic Church has been teaching this for 2000 years.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm


I wasn't suggesting others do not teach this, my emphasis was one where I was supporting my claim by history; not excluding others who share this same doctrine. Obviously the Catholic church believes in the Trinity and I'm thankful for it. It is Biblical.
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:59 am

It's hilarious that everyone has something different,nothing is exact, it shoudl be interesting when we die.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby SOWA1291 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:51 am

1 Billion Catholics believe in the same thing. Its all here below.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:21 pm

SOWA1291 wrote:1 Billion Catholics believe in the same thing. Its all here below.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm



Yes, but Catholics do not make up 100% of our population.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:24 pm

Matsilab wrote: "Jesus in fact does say that He and the Father are One. They are one because they are part of the 1 God that is the Triune Godhead of the Scriptures."

My response: They are one because Jesus is the father. No where in the bible does it say that Jesus and the father are "parts" of God. Is. 44:6 "...I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." When you split God into parts, you are contradicting scripture, there is only one God. The bible never speaks of God as being a triune God, only those that believe in this doctrine will take verses and "see" in them a so called trinity, because they are letting their beliefs interpret the verses. There is no verse in scripture that says that God is a triune God.

So in Mark 1, in the baptism of Jesus you are doing this. You are "seeing" trinity here because of what you believe but the description of the baptism of Jesus was not put in Mark, or any of the other gospels to show that God is a trinity. So in other words, it has been taken out of context. No where in the accounts of the baptism of Jesus can you find the word trinity. The accounts of the baptism of Jesus were put in the bible to demonstrate that Jesus was the Son of God, as a confirmation to John the baptist that Jesus was the Son of God, and also to signify the beginning of Jesus in his office as a high priest.

The term Son of God is widely misinterpreted because people think its the same as a human relationship between a father and a son. For us, a father and a son are two different persons and so some people try to think of the relationship between Jesus and the father in the same terms and therefore falsely conclude that Jesus and the father are two separate persons. The term Son of God has a different meaning in scripture, whenever Jesus used the term Son of God to describe himself, he was not using it to say that he and the father were two different persons like it would be in our terms. Son of God to the Jews of his day meant that Jesus was calling himself God. In other words, God in the form of a man. We see in scripture that the Jews wanted to stone him because they didnt believe he was God, but that is what he was telling them. John 10:33 "The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” Then in verse 36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?. So from these scriptures we learn that when Jesus told the Jews he was the Son of God, to them that meant he was telling them he was God, and for them that was blasphemy. So to summarize, the term Son of God does not mean that Jesus is a separate person, or a part of a triune God, but it means that Jesus is God, fully God. The jews did not respond to him, "we want to stone you because you are saying you are one of the persons of the Godhead" they wanted to stone him because he was saying he was the full deity of God. This is consistent with scripture, specifically Col. 2:9, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." In Jesus dwells the FULLNESS of the Godhead but in the form of a man(bodily form). So Jesus was fully man and fully God, not a part of God, nor a separate person in the Godhead.

In the account of the baptism found in John 1:32-34 "And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” We clearly read that John the baptist did not know who the Son of God would be since Jesus was a man just like any other. So in order for John to know who the Son of God was, a voice told him, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit". From the other accounts of the baptism of Jesus found in the other gospels, we learn that this is what John saw when he baptized Jesus, he saw the spirit descend on him like a dove and this was the confirmation of what the voice had told him would happen. Now John had the confirmation or the sign that let him know that Jesus was the Son of God. The only one that heard the voice was John the baptist as a confirmation. In the account of Mark 1 the only one that saw the heavens open, and the spirit descending as a dove, and the only one that heard the voice was John. Verse 10 says "He saw" not they saw.

Mark 1:11, "Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” The voice coming from heaven is not literal in the sense that a loud voice "came" down from heaven to speak to John, if this was so, then everybody there would have heard it. The writer here writes that the" voice came from heaven", to convey that this was not the voice of a person, or of a human, or of a man, it was the voice of God. It was a divine utterance as further confirmation that Jesus was God in the flesh. God is omnipresent which means being present everywhere. Even if God was in Jesus as a man, he still remained omnispresent which means he was still present everywhere and therefore was able to speak to John as a confirmation.

Mark 1:10 "And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove." John once again is the only one to see this, he saw the heavens parting and the spirit descending upon Jesus like a dove, no one else saw the heavens parting, therefore it was not literal. Once again the writer is trying to convey that the spirit that descended on Jesus was the spirit of God, hence the heavens parted.

What was the purpose of John seeing the spirit descend on Jesus? As a confirmation that this was God in the flesh but also it may have been signify that Jesus was being "anointed" as a high priest since his mission on earth was to provide a sacrifice for the sins of the world. A priest in OT times would offer sacrifices of animals, such as lambs so that the israelites would have theirs sins forgiven for a period of time. Jesus was a high priest according to Hebrews 4:14-16 "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." So Jesus in his baptism was possibly being anointed to be the high priest who would offer himself up as a sacrifice, hence the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

I mentioned that the spirit descend upon him because this was part of the confirmation that John was told to look for but it may have also served the purpose of anointing Jesus. In Isaiah 61:1 we read, "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,..." In OT times, priests were washed with water and anointed with oil, hence Jesus was washed with water(baptism) and anointed with oil(holy spirit descending on him). Lev. 8:6, "Then Moses brought Aaron and his sons and washed them with water." And in verse 12, "And he poured some of the anointing oil on Aaron’s head and anointed him, to consecrate him." Oil is symbolic of the spirit of God in scripture. If Jesus was to be the high priest he needed to be anointed according to OT law and maybe this anointing was happening at his baptism, but more than anything, everything that John heard and saw was a confirmation to him that Jesus was God in the flesh. Another reason why this anointing may have been occurring at his baptism was that Jesus was believed to be about 30 yrs old when he got baptized. It is interesting to note that priest in the OT needed to wait until they were 30 years old to be allowed to become priests. Numbers 4:3, "...from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, all who enter the service to do the work in the tabernacle of meeting. Jesus was about 30 when he got baptized, Luke 3:23, "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli," It is widely believed and agreed upon that Jesus started his public ministry after his baptism. Is it coincidence that Jesus waited until he was 30 to get baptized? The Baptism of Jesus was a public announcement of the start of Jesus’ ministry. It was a start of his ministry as a priest...Hence Jesus did not get baptized as an example for us, that teaching has no biblical foundation.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:42 am

Matsilab wrote: There are many passages that teach no one has ever seen God (the Father). If Jesus Christ is the Father, how can the Scriptures say no one has seen the Father? Many people saw Jesus Christ.

My response: John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
God is a spirit according to John 4:24, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." A spirit can not be seen so God in spirit form, no one has seen. But God in the form of a man was seen. God in the form of a man is Jesus. That is why the verse says the Son has declared him. This means that God as father is spirit, but God as a man is Jesus. So Jesus declares the father, in the sense that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Col. 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God...". So God as the father is invisible, but God as the son is visible. Since Jesus is the father but in human form, Jesus was able to respond to Phillip's statement by saying that those that had seen Jesus had seen the father, Jesus is the father. "Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:8-11.)

Notice that Jesus says that the father is in him in verse 10. If the father is in Jesus which means that Jesus is divine, then whoever saw Jesus saw the father in form of a man, but no one has seen the father in form of a spirit, naturally because a spirit can not be seen by our eyes.

Going back to Col. 2:9, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily..." If in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily then the father must dwell in Jesus and therefore it makes perfect sense that Jesus said it in John 14:10, "... but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." The father dwells in Jesus, because Jesus is the father.


I have a question for you Matt. If Jesus is only a part of the Godhead then why does Col. 2:9 say that in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily?

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby Matlisab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:23 am

ziurziur wrote: The voice coming from heaven is not literal in the sense that a loud voice "came" down from heaven to speak to John,

he saw the heavens parting and the spirit descending upon Jesus like a dove, no one else saw the heavens parting, therefore it was not literal. Once again the writer is trying to convey that the spirit that descended on Jesus was the spirit of God, hence the heavens parted.


Out of all that copy and paste and retyping of your argument, the whole of it boils down to these two sentences I quoted. It comes down to the a literal or figurative interpretation of Scripture. When the Bible says a voice came from Heaven, I believe it. When the Bible says the Spirit of God decended, I believe it. When the Bible says Jesus sits at the right hand of the throne of God, I believe it. When the Bible says no one has ever seen the Father, I believe it.

When the Bible speaks in parable or figurative language it is always qualified as a parable or a vision that has an explanation.

There is nothing in Mark 1 for you to grammatically interpret Jesus being the Son in the Water, the Spirit coming down from Heaven and the Voice speaking from Heaven.

I'm confident that our conversation of this topic will end here. I cannot persuade someone to take the Bible literally. Either you do or you do not


ziurziur wrote:I have a question for you Matt. If Jesus is only a part of the Godhead then why does Col. 2:9 say that in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily?


I don't know how you read Col. 2:9 to say Jesus is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A classic, historic interpretation of no only protestants but also the whole of Christianity would be that Jesus Christ possess the fullness of the divine nature and attributes of God. The emphasis on the "bodily" is a confirmation that Jesus was not only fully God, but fully human as well. Philippians 2:5-11 is a good cross reference on that.
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:55 am

I believe the Bible should be taken literal as well, except when its not literal. If you want to go literal then Deut. 6:4 says, "“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" One God is one God, doesnt say one GOd divided into 3 parts. You are saying that God is one, but then you split him into parts, that is not taking the bible as literal. Either he is one or he is made up of 3 parts. I will go with the literal application and say he is One God, and he is not split up into 3 parts.

The Jews had no concept of God being split into parts like the trinity doctrine teaches. When they read Deut. 6:4 they knew God was one literally, one is one, not 3. Isaiah 44:6, "...I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God." It says besides God there is no other God, which means literally there is no other God sitting on his right side like you seem to believe. Right hand and right side are two different things. Isaiah 44:8, "Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” God does not know of any other God cause there is one God. Isaiah 44:24, "I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself..." The words alone and by myself, literally mean he was alone and by himself, there was no other person present. God is making it clear he is God alone with these passages. If God were a trinity made up of 3 persons, could he really make these statements? Could one of the persons in the trinity say, "who alone" and "by myself"? Isaiah 46:9 says, "...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me." One person is speaking here and this person is saying there is none like him. It is difficult, if not impossible to see a trinity in these passages. God is literally one.

Isaiah 9:6 "...and he will be called...everlasting father..." Jesus is literally called the father in this passage because Jesus is the father. If the bible says that Jesus is called the father then i believe it. Jesus is the father.

Only God can forgive sins right? The father being God can forgive sins according to Mt. 6:14, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. So clearly the father is God and he can forgive sins. Now Jesus also had the power to forgive sins. Mk. 2:5-10, "5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…”

If both the father and Jesus can forgive sins then either we have two separate persons that can forgive sins which would contradict scripture because only one can forgive sins, or Jesus was able to forgive sins because he was the father.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby disastamasta » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:45 am

Matt 3 :13-17
What is the explanation for the voice from heaven "This is MY beloved son"

John 17
Is Christ praying to himself?

Acts 7 55-66
Who was on the right hand of who?
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby Matlisab » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:12 pm

disastamasta wrote:Matt 3 :13-17
What is the explanation for the voice from heaven "This is MY beloved son"

John 17
Is Christ praying to himself?

Acts 7 55-66
Who was on the right hand of who?


Good questions and valid references to show the distinction of persons of God the Son and God the Father. The trinity is a complex doctrine as the Scriptures both affirm distinction and roles but also unity and oneness.
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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby ziurziur » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:09 pm

disastamasta wrote:Matt 3 :13-17
What is the explanation for the voice from heaven "This is MY beloved son"

John 17
Is Christ praying to himself?

Acts 7 55-66
Who was on the right hand of who?




I think I went over the voice that spoke this is my beloved son in earlier posts so I wont further address it.

Christ is praying as a man, as flesh to the father. Jesus in his earthly ministry did this many times. He would act on his humanity and on his divinity. As a man and as God. Jesus cried as a man when Lazarus died, but then as God he resurrects him. Why would he cry at the death of Lazarus if he was about to resurrect him? So we see two sides of Jesus, the man and the divine.

The phrase right hand does not mean right side, it does not say right side, it says right hand. The term right hand means a place or position of authority. Stephen saw Jesus in his vision as the one and only authority in heaven. He did not see Jesus standing on the right side of the father, that is not what this verse is implying at all. If this was the case then there are at least two thrones in heaven and that would be idolatry.

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby TSBGOD » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:06 pm

God made us.....The rest is up to us. End of story!

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Re: Jesus is the Father

Postby MRTECMOSUPERBOWL » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:23 pm

Was talking about this whole God thing. I think it's a total fraud the more and more I read up on things. These born again Christians talking about accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. These same people cheat,steal and kill. These same people go to Heaven while good people who are not believers will die in some hell or won't exist. It all sounds so unreal. I believe Jesus was around, but he was probably like these people on TV that cure diseases on TV and make the cripple walk. It's all fake. Jesus was just a person just like you and I as was Moses. Part the seas? Probably low tide or something who knows. I just am not convinced any longer.
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