Who believes in GOD?

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby clarkham » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:38 am

So youre saying 99 out of 100 believers in god either attend church regularly now, or grew up around church?

You're wrong. 'll bet you that less than half of believers attend church regularly. I'll bet you 25 percent or more havent been at all in a year.

Even if your 99% was right, do you realize that other one percent means over one million believers that didnt get it from a book, in America alone? Multiply that across the world and you have a shit ton. So don't say his statement was close enough. There is a huge difference between 99% and 100%. We have to be very careful when saying "all" and "every", especially on such a vast topic like this one.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:49 am

LuckyTool wrote:You could make the same argument about science. If you're taught nothing about science until you're 21 and then given a biology book you'd think it was crazy. But if you're educated about it throughout your upbringing then it makes sense.

Why is there anything at all? Scientists haven't been able to figure that one out. Is there something to existence outside the realm of what we can physically perceive (what may be studied with the scientific method)? If yes, then a deity is not a crazy notion.


That's not true. You could easily verify what is in the book with reality. At least, the biology you have access to on the island :wink: At any rate, you could verify human biology with your own body, or your caretaker, using x-ray machines, MRIs, etc.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:54 am

clarkham wrote:So youre saying 99 out of 100 believers in god either attend church regularly now, or grew up around church?

You're wrong. 'll bet you that less than half of believers attend church regularly. I'll bet you 25 percent or more havent been at all in a year.

Even if your 99% was right, do you realize that other one percent means over one million believers that didnt get it from a book, in America alone? Multiply that across the world and you have a shit ton. So don't say his statement was close enough. There is a huge difference between 99% and 100%. We have to be very careful when saying "all" and "every", especially on such a vast topic like this one.


I wouldn't say most attend some kind of service regularly, but I would say most were forced to go to something regularly when they were children. And there's dozens of churches/temples/etc in every neighborhood in the country, so it's taken for granted. Everyone who believes just assumes belief is normal, because most people do and it's likely how they were raised. Hardly anyone thinks to question it or really think about it.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby swampc1 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:49 am

My point was that you are saying religion needs to be taught or indoctrinated. However, atheism needs to be taught more so than religion. It is inherent in every society and culture throughout history to have a religion. It is natural to believe in a higher being for humans. It is innate for people to "know" there is God.
If belief in a higher being (GOD) was so ridiculous then why do humans naturally tend to believe in such? Because they are stupid? or ignorant? If you are atheist then that does NOT make you more wise.... Perhaps, if you are truy open minded on the subject, then atheists would admit that they cannot prove God doesn't exist. They cannot prove how life started or where matter comes from. They cannot prove Darwinism actually without some large holes in the theory.
So, if you are atheist it doesn't make you smarter or more wise than religious people. It makes you have different beliefs, of which, you cannot prove to be more or less true than those with different beliefs. You may have theories which you hold to have more weight than that of a religious person. But until your theories can be proven then they are nothing more than "beliefs". Just as you claim that a religious person has nothing but beliefs.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby clarkham » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:57 pm

"Most" is fine, Bo. Initially you said "all" though, and thats what I was correcting. Not all belief comes from a holy book, church, brainwashing, or a jungle. Most? Sure, maybe.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby clarkham » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:22 pm

swampc1 wrote: If belief in a higher being (GOD) was so ridiculous then why do humans naturally tend to believe in such? Because they are stupid? or ignorant?


No. They believe because of societal and family pressure. Society says believe in a god, so most people do. And this societal pressure comes from gods and holy books being used to explain many things that science now does, over many generations. Science and technology is still incredibly new in our world, relatively speaking. So the idea of a god or holy book is still very prevalent. As we have learned more about science, atheism has gone up. So we actually have a natural tendency to want to know how things work, not to believe in gods.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:16 am

Bottom line..We really do not know. I think we all can agree on this :)

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby clarkham » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:59 am

I doubt you'll get believers to agree on that, Most of them will say that they know.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:07 am

Bo... wrote:To everyone who believes in a god, try this little thought experiment. Imagine you were taken as a baby and raised on a deserted island. Everything you need to survive is provided, food, shelter, and so on. You are raised with a completely modern education, taught to read and write, taught math. You learn all the sciences. You're taught chemistry, physics, evolution, astronomy, biology, modern medicine, and so on. All kinds of fiction and nonfiction books are provided for you to read, classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, psychology, history. There is just one exception. You are told nothing about religion or any gods. You are given nothing that says anything about any religion or myth. Then on your 21st birthday you are given a bible, told to read it and say what you think about it. I think every single person put in this situation would think it was fiction. If you were then told that hundreds of millions of people believe the stuff in that book actually happened, that there actually is a god, you would laugh and think the whole world was insane. That is the problem with religion, those books can not stand up by themselves. No person in their right mind would read a holy book and think it was true. In order for you all to believe, you had to be indoctrinated or brainwashed from the time you were a young child. And it's not done in a nice way, even to children. They don't just hand a child a bible and say, start reading this and let me know what you think. No, it's drilled into you. You get nuns hitting your knuckles with rulers, and priests standing in front of crowds preaching hellfire and damnation. "You must believe this or you will burn for eternity!" It's very hard to psychologically overcome that kind of brainwashing. It's not a decision I came to lightly. I was raised Greek Orthodox and forced to go to church and Sunday school from first grade to eighth grade. It took me years to overcome the brainwashing of religion. That's why I'm an atheist and I think all religions are horrible and dangerous.



I agree i was raised Lutheran cause parents made me go, was so boring couldnt stand it. Said peace to religion and did my own thing for 10 years then i encountered Jesus. no religious garbage but really encountered the power and presence of God and from that point i never looked back. Im talking some definate stuff some physical and mental healings right to me and close friends not some wierd television preacher stuff. I saw and felt it myself.... Changed me forever in a good way son. Ya u prolly think its wierd and im a Jesus freak but i count that as a complement , try getting to kmow jesus not religion, or tell me to stick it. :kitty2:

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:09 am

clarkham wrote:I doubt you'll get believers to agree on that, Most of them will say that they know.


No i agree i cant prove it thats why we go in faith baby. I still love clark but still mad he wouldn't meet me at destin this past summer

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby LuckyTool » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:59 am

Bo... wrote:To everyone who believes in a god, try this little thought experiment. Imagine you were taken as a baby and raised on a deserted island. Everything you need to survive is provided, food, shelter, and so on. You are raised with a completely modern education, taught to read and write, taught math. You learn all the sciences. You're taught chemistry, physics, evolution, astronomy, biology, modern medicine, and so on. All kinds of fiction and nonfiction books are provided for you to read, classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, psychology, history. There is just one exception. You are told nothing about religion or any gods. You are given nothing that says anything about any religion or myth. Then on your 21st birthday you are given a bible, told to read it and say what you think about it. I think every single person put in this situation would think it was fiction. If you were then told that hundreds of millions of people believe the stuff in that book actually happened, that there actually is a god, you would laugh and think the whole world was insane. That is the problem with religion, those books can not stand up by themselves. No person in their right mind would read a holy book and think it was true. In order for you all to believe, you had to be indoctrinated or brainwashed from the time you were a young child. And it's not done in a nice way, even to children. They don't just hand a child a bible and say, start reading this and let me know what you think. No, it's drilled into you. You get nuns hitting your knuckles with rulers, and priests standing in front of crowds preaching hellfire and damnation. "You must believe this or you will burn for eternity!" It's very hard to psychologically overcome that kind of brainwashing. It's not a decision I came to lightly. I was raised Greek Orthodox and forced to go to church and Sunday school from first grade to eighth grade. It took me years to overcome the brainwashing of religion. That's why I'm an atheist and I think all religions are horrible and dangerous.


How do you propose to educate someone in classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, and history with no mention of or reference to religion or myth? Further, many of our greatest scientists believed in God. If salvation from the "brainwashing" was as simple as this thought exercise then the great minds throughout history would have come to a consensus on this long ago.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:25 am

LuckyTool wrote: If salvation from the "brainwashing" was as simple as this thought exercise then the great minds throughout history would have come to a consensus on this long ago.


Maybe we will one day :)

Until someone can prove there is a GOD, we will wait and see on our day. Don't get it twisted. I believe there is a GOD, but that is as far as it goes. He is our maker, and our taker...Nothing in between :)

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby clarkham » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:39 am

justinpeters51 wrote:I still love clark but still mad he wouldn't meet me at destin this past summer


Ummm. Maybe because you became a sore loser and bailed on TTL mid draft (you weren't "too busy" - I saw you joining other leagues), then havent answered any of my emails or AIM messages since?

Nice to see you again, old pal!
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:15 pm

clarkham wrote:
justinpeters51 wrote:I still love clark but still mad he wouldn't meet me at destin this past summer


Ummm. Maybe because you became a sore loser and bailed on TTL mid draft (you weren't "too busy" - I saw you joining other leagues), then havent answered any of my emails or AIM messages since?

Nice to see you again, old pal!


Absolutely right, just didnt feel like playing it. But to my defense I dont recall an email? AIM's yes but no email. Either was we need to meet for coffee somewhere in tennessee around the half way point.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:16 pm

LuckyTool wrote:
Bo... wrote:To everyone who believes in a god, try this little thought experiment. Imagine you were taken as a baby and raised on a deserted island. Everything you need to survive is provided, food, shelter, and so on. You are raised with a completely modern education, taught to read and write, taught math. You learn all the sciences. You're taught chemistry, physics, evolution, astronomy, biology, modern medicine, and so on. All kinds of fiction and nonfiction books are provided for you to read, classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, psychology, history. There is just one exception. You are told nothing about religion or any gods. You are given nothing that says anything about any religion or myth. Then on your 21st birthday you are given a bible, told to read it and say what you think about it. I think every single person put in this situation would think it was fiction. If you were then told that hundreds of millions of people believe the stuff in that book actually happened, that there actually is a god, you would laugh and think the whole world was insane. That is the problem with religion, those books can not stand up by themselves. No person in their right mind would read a holy book and think it was true. In order for you all to believe, you had to be indoctrinated or brainwashed from the time you were a young child. And it's not done in a nice way, even to children. They don't just hand a child a bible and say, start reading this and let me know what you think. No, it's drilled into you. You get nuns hitting your knuckles with rulers, and priests standing in front of crowds preaching hellfire and damnation. "You must believe this or you will burn for eternity!" It's very hard to psychologically overcome that kind of brainwashing. It's not a decision I came to lightly. I was raised Greek Orthodox and forced to go to church and Sunday school from first grade to eighth grade. It took me years to overcome the brainwashing of religion. That's why I'm an atheist and I think all religions are horrible and dangerous.


How do you propose to educate someone in classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, and history with no mention of or reference to religion or myth? Further, many of our greatest scientists believed in God. If salvation from the "brainwashing" was as simple as this thought exercise then the great minds throughout history would have come to a consensus on this long ago.


Its funny cause history is the same faith you need for whatever religion you choose. I havent seen all the things they claim from history, but I believe them.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby bruddog » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:56 pm

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:54 pm

clarkham wrote:
swampc1 wrote: If belief in a higher being (GOD) was so ridiculous then why do humans naturally tend to believe in such? Because they are stupid? or ignorant?


No. They believe because of societal and family pressure. Society says believe in a god, so most people do. And this societal pressure comes from gods and holy books being used to explain many things that science now does, over many generations. Science and technology is still incredibly new in our world, relatively speaking. So the idea of a god or holy book is still very prevalent. As we have learned more about science, atheism has gone up. So we actually have a natural tendency to want to know how things work, not to believe in gods.


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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:59 pm

TSBGOD wrote:Bottom line..We really do not know. I think we all can agree on this :)


We can not prove what happened 13 billion years ago at the time of the big bang, but we can, and have, proved that the "facts" presented in every holy book are not true. If you feel the best explanation for the creation of the universe is a god, that's fine, but to pin your belief to one specific book that we know is false makes no sense. It also begs the question, if you can't accept that the universe was simply always here, why can you accept that a god was always here? You're just replacing the universe with god, it's no real solution.

Also, this is a general "you." I don't mean to pick on you TSBGod specifically, I'm not really sure what you personally believe.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:06 pm

LuckyTool wrote:
How do you propose to educate someone in classics of literature, modern novels, philosophy, and history with no mention of or reference to religion or myth? Further, many of our greatest scientists believed in God. If salvation from the "brainwashing" was as simple as this thought exercise then the great minds throughout history would have come to a consensus on this long ago.


There's plenty of works that don't mention religion or myth. Scientists believe in a god usually for the same reasons I've outlined, that's how they were raised. Most scientists are basically secular, if they have a belief they tend not to have their lives revolve around it, and tend not to think about it and just focus on their work. Neil deGrasse Tyson is a good example of this. He won't commit to being an atheist, but he doesn't believe in any conception of god that humans have written about in holy books, and is generally very anti-religion.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:18 pm

justinpeters51 wrote:Its funny cause history is the same faith you need for whatever religion you choose. I havent seen all the things they claim from history, but I believe them.


Absolutely not true. History is verifiable. I noticed near the end of this thread before I commented someone asked how you can prove George Washington was the first president. It starts with the fact that it's not an extraordinary claim. There's an old adage, forget who said it, maybe Carl Sagan, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that George Washington was the first president is not an extraordinary claim. There are many many contemporary accounts from the time referencing him as the first president. There are letters from him, letters to him, and many other historical documents. There is no reasonable expectation that anyone would have been lying about this in the 1790s.

If you take Jesus as a contrast, there are actually no contemporary accounts of Jesus. There are no writings that have been attributed to him, and no one who lived in his lifetime wrote about him. The only writings about Jesus are from after he died. The gospels were written hundreds of years after Jesus died. Plus they make extraordinary claims - he performed miracles, he rose from the dead, etc. There is no historical evidence for these events at all.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby TSBGOD » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:50 pm

Bo... wrote:
TSBGOD wrote:Bottom line..We really do not know. I think we all can agree on this :)


We can not prove what happened 13 billion years ago at the time of the big bang, but we can, and have, proved that the "facts" presented in every holy book are not true. If you feel the best explanation for the creation of the universe is a god, that's fine, but to pin your belief to one specific book that we know is false makes no sense. It also begs the question, if you can't accept that the universe was simply always here, why can you accept that a god was always here? You're just replacing the universe with god, it's no real solution.

Also, this is a general "you." I don't mean to pick on you TSBGod specifically, I'm not really sure what you personally believe.


I believe there is a higher power, but that it cannot help us day to day in life. People thank God all the time for hilarious things, it is getting kind of ridiculous. People thank God for getting over drug addiction, for scoring a game winning TD, for having their kids safe and sound, the list goes on. Do you really think this is due to a God? Are you using any common sense? You get through drug addiction because God helped you along the way, but when someone rapes and kills a family member God did nothing? I mean, I try to be reasonable, but get real!~


Do I hope that there is a God, absolutely! But I do have my doubts. Common sense to have doubts and disbelief.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:09 pm

Bo... wrote:
justinpeters51 wrote:Its funny cause history is the same faith you need for whatever religion you choose. I havent seen all the things they claim from history, but I believe them.


Absolutely not true. History is verifiable. I noticed near the end of this thread before I commented someone asked how you can prove George Washington was the first president. It starts with the fact that it's not an extraordinary claim. There's an old adage, forget who said it, maybe Carl Sagan, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that George Washington was the first president is not an extraordinary claim. There are many many contemporary accounts from the time referencing him as the first president. There are letters from him, letters to him, and many other historical documents. There is no reasonable expectation that anyone would have been lying about this in the 1790s.

If you take Jesus as a contrast, there are actually no contemporary accounts of Jesus. There are no writings that have been attributed to him, and no one who lived in his lifetime wrote about him. The only writings about Jesus are from after he died. The gospels were written hundreds of years after Jesus died. Plus they make extraordinary claims - he performed miracles, he rose from the dead, etc. There is no historical evidence for these events at all.


No Not all history is verifiable... Granted that a large majority is verifiable, but you don't have cameras and photos of all history, so you are believing what some dude wrote or some dude said. Your example above is if you believe those documents or letters were accurate or not.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby Bo... » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:37 am

It's not just some dude, though. It's like, hundreds of dudes. The evidence showing Washington was president might as well be 100%, while the evidence for Jesus being the son of god and performing miracles might as well be 0%.
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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby justinpeters51 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:12 pm

I will give you that about Washington, there is prolly some very compelling evidence. My point i guess is if we were to dissect everything you believe about history i bet we could find something that you believe based on hearing it from your 4th grade text book or your 10th grade teacher, something you don't really know all the detail about but you still believe it happened.

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Re: Who believes in GOD?

Postby TSBGOD » Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:55 pm

That is apple to oranges..there is absolutely no proof of God what so ever. Just hear say. Do people even realize this? :)


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